College Conversations Season 2, Episode 4: “Does Anyone Do Discipleship Like Jesus Anymore” Part 1 (Transcript)
Season 2 Episode 3 is now available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube featuring President Gregg Garner, Academic Dean Jeffrey Sherrod, and VP of Enrollment Laurie Kagay.
Episode Synopsis
Gregg Garner, Jeff Sherrod, and Laurie Kagay discuss discipleship on college campuses and highlight the lack of engagement in discipleship among Christians. They explore different definitions and examples of discipleship, emphasizing the importance of interacting with others. The speakers also address the challenges of discipleship in a culture that values self-affirmation and individualism. They suggest that there is a problem with discipleship in churches and a lack of biblical literacy among young people. Overall, they emphasize the importance of making disciples and discuss the potential role of colleges in discipleship.
College Conversations Season 2 Episode 4: “Does Anyone Do Discipleship Like Jesus Anymore?” Part One (Podcast Transcript)
[00:00:10.90] - Jeff Sherrod
everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm here with president Greg Garner and Lori Kege. And today, we're talking about, discipleship on college campuses. Well, you're asking the question, like, what is it? Is it possible to do discipleship at campus? I think even asking questions like when we're talking about discipleship, what exactly do we mean? I think that's another kind of question that comes up. But, Lori, I thought you kinda kick us off with some maybe some stats that you found, just kinda talking about discipleship, state in America, and, like, how people are feeling about how do they self report?
[00:00:45.20] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. So so Barna is kind of, I feel like, my my go to, but they do such a good job Yeah. Pulling Christians and compiling for us all, but one of the top, like, results I found was two in five Christians are not engaged in discipleship at all. That's from twenty twenty two. So that's, like, a pretty fresh status.
[00:01:03.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So almost half of all Christians are not engaged in any form of discipleship.
[00:01:09.50] - Laurie Kagay
Right. And then their definition for discipleship is just whether either being discipled by someone…
[00:01:16.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay. So they don't define it. It's just like Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:19.00] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Yeah. They're like, who your judge is.
[00:01:20.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Discipleship is. We'll take it.
[00:01:21.90] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Either you're being discipled by someone or you're being engaged in the process of discipleship. Some of the activities they talk about would be Sunday school.
[00:01:33.40] - Jeff Sherrod
K.
[00:01:34.29] - Gregg Garner
So I'm being discipled if I go to Sunday school.
[00:01:36.70] - Laurie Kagay
That was some of the activity that I talked about. Sunday school
[00:01:39.59] - Jeff Sherrod
So they gave like, for the people that are responding, they gave examples Of what and I don't know if you looked exactly the site, but they look they give examples of what could be discipleship type things.
[00:01:48.70] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:01:49.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay.
[00:01:49.29] - Laurie Kagay
So Sunday school is one of them. The other probably the most common idea I found was mentorship, and it tends to be one on one.
[00:01:56.59] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:01:57.00] - Laurie Kagay
So Now…
[00:01:57.50] - Gregg Garner
Is this, like, biblical mentorship or, Like, life coaching, physical training, does it matter? How do you qualify?
[00:02:03.09] - Laurie Kagay
It’s hard to tell from, like, you know, a website. But it's at least saying, like, someone Who you're in a in that has some kind of spiritual influence on your life. I would say looking at, like, kind of the programs or the things People are selling. If you're just looking through Google Google, like, how to take part in a discipleship program, it feels Like Christian life coaching? You know, the way it the way it reads.
[00:02:27.00] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:02:27.40] - Laurie Kagay
Now some of them will be like, no. We really want you to know The word. I I kinda found a few, like, largely three groups If you're looking at, like, discipleship programs, like or three categories that things would fall into. One, churches would provide discipleship courses for Often new adult believers. And those the most of intents of those would be, like would last for about nine months.
[00:02:57.80] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay.
[00:02:58.19] - Laurie Kagay
And they would meet, like, once a month.
[00:03:00.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Once a week. So maybe Once a month. Yeah.
[00:03:02.00] - Laurie Kagay
Once a month. Maybe another one on one. So, like, once a month in a group going through some sort of curriculum and then have, like, a one on one mentor. Another cat so church like, church discipleship for new believers would be one category. Another category would be, like, gap year programs. And I would say that's anything from a summer program to six months to nine months. That's kind of the the span. And then the third would be something that looked to me like a spiritual retreat center where they would, like, be like, come and get some relief. Come, you know, draw away and spend time with Jesus. These are a couple days. They would call it discipleship. So they'll be like, take part in our discipleship intensive. We have two day intensives or five day intensives.
[00:03:50.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Gotcha.
[00:03:51.19] - Laurie Kagay
Up to, like, a week or two. So almost to me, it almost felt like camp, But maybe for adults or people looking for some refreshment. Now if I'm trying to find, like, discipleship intersect with college, I couldn't find a whole lot other than college programs titled. So, like, get a get a degree…
[00:04:15.30] - Jeff Sherrod
They're preparing students for how to disciple for…
[00:04:18.00] - Laurie Kagay
how to disciple.
[00:04:18.89] - Gregg Garner
Like, what would you call that degree program?
[00:04:20.39] - Laurie Kagay
I think there was, like, a MA in Pastoral discipleship. Oh. K. Or
[00:04:27.19] - Gregg Garner
Is that like you're you're discipling pastors, or you're a pastor who is a discipler of…
[00:04:31.69] - Laurie Kagay
You're a pastor who's a discipler.
[00:04:33.50] - Gregg Garner
Gotcha. K.
[00:04:35.19] - Laurie Kagay
There's there's other stats out there not from Burna. You know, it's hard because people have different definitions of discipleship.
[00:04:40.39] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:04:40.60] - Laurie Kagay
And So
[00:04:40.80] - Gregg Garner
There's gonna have to define it for ourselves here.
[00:04:42.80] - Laurie Kagay
And so one of them was, like, only five percent of churches are disciple making churches Was, you know, a stat they would have?
[00:04:50.19] - Gregg Garner
Five percent?
[00:04:51.39] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Would would fall under the category And again, this is one out
[00:04:54.69] - Gregg Garner
of churches.
[00:04:55.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Barna saying that too?
[00:04:56.50] - Laurie Kagay
No. This is a different source. Okay. I think it was, discipleship dot org or something something along those lines.
[00:05:02.19] - Gregg Garner
One out of fifty churches are disciple making …
[00:05:05.89] - Laurie Kagay
Disciple-Making churches.
[00:05:07.80] - Gregg Garner
And did they define what that meant? A disciple making church?
[00:05:10.60] - Laurie Kagay
Theirs was similar. It was, like, in a in a discipleship relationship To some degree, which I think, is often one on one.
[00:05:20.89] - Gregg Garner
Which, right. And and if people if you're listening to this or watching this and you're, like, going, what's the big deal if it's one on one? Mine's one on one. I I think stating the obvious, Jesus had twelve. Yeah. So it's it's like, the that that's probably why you're you're watching us or
[00:05:37.89] - Laurie Kagay
Listening to us…
[00:05:38.80] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Going. And they're often one hour. Jesus Christ.
[00:05:42.60] - Laurie Kagay
I remember you gave a sermon. I think it was maybe even the the beginning of this semester where you were like, Jesus works with cohorts. Jesus calls cohorts. And there were some you know, even adults in the room were like, I never thought about that. But he does. That's what he does. Yeah. There's another, I think, heartbreaking stat.
[00:05:59.10] - Gregg Garner
And there's a reason why, which we maybe can get into later. But just in case we don't, I think a common misconception with discipleship is that you are discipling people purely in how they would interact with God Rather than recognizing that so much of God's will is to help us interact with one another.
[00:06:18.19] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:06:18.69] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep.
[00:06:19.10] - Gregg Garner
So you you can't You can't positively test that, if you don't have a cohort within which to, workshop those lessons. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:29.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. There's gotta be the one another. Yeah.
[00:06:31.50] - Gregg Garner
Right. Love one another by yourself. Right.
[00:06:34.50] - Laurie Kagay
It's by yourself. Well, that's that's this other stat. Let me find it on my page. Okay. This is also Barna. Fifty six percent of Christians tell Barna that their spiritual life is entirely private. So they're just…
[00:06:48.19] - Jeff Sherrod
it's just me. Right.
[00:06:49.60] - Laurie Kagay
I had this interaction with a student the other day because we asked for, like, a a spiritual reference or a spiritual mentor, you know, phone number on our applications so that we can call and we can ask them what their relationship's been like and all those things. And, increasingly, we are seeing you know, they just say, I don't have one. Mhmm. Don't have one.
[00:07:09.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Don't go to church.
[00:07:09.60] - Laurie Kagay
So then I'll kinda follow-up. Well, you know, do you have a home church? Is there someone sometimes they'll have to say, you know, like, one kid I was dealing with, he's like, I don't, you know, I don't come from a My family is not believers.
[00:07:22.00] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:07:22.69] - Laurie Kagay
You can talk to this teacher, something along those lines. But even sometimes they'll be hostile. They'll be like, why are you judging me for that? Like, why do you need that? I spent I get more out of my time alone with Jesus. I can't find that at church. So, you know, church hurt is, like, high to you in that regard.
[00:07:40.80] - Jeff Sherrod
Even imagine church hurt, because these are, like, sometimes very young people Yeah. And maybe, like, a distrust in institutions from the beginning. Mhmm.
[00:07:50.50] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. That's another. So when
[00:07:51.80] - Gregg Garner
It's it's really hard for me not to laugh Sometimes when I hear some of this stuff, I'm not trying to lack compassion, for folks, but it's like, Like, to to feel like you're being attacked because someone's asking a question, to know that that's the climate we're in Right. It it's it's just we're so weak. Yeah. Yeah. If our if as a generation, young people Can't have a question asked. That's tough, man.
[00:08:22.30] - Laurie Kagay
And that's why I'm like, it it you're probably not a good fit here. Because we are the kind of school that You're gonna a lot of people are gonna ask ask
[00:08:28.10] - Jeff Sherrod
ask ask you this. Where it's starting, discipleship, you're gonna get a rude awakening.
[00:08:32.20] - Laurie Kagay
Because you're gonna go from Zero to …
[00:08:35.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Discipleship.
[00:08:36.89] - Laurie Kagay
Off the charts. I think on the level of, like, intimacy, people looking at you, people asking questions, receiving correction.
[00:08:42.50] - Gregg Garner
But but over half of Christians…
[00:08:45.50] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:08:45.89] - Gregg Garner
Say that their faith is completely private?
[00:08:49.20] - Laurie Kagay
Completely private.
[00:08:50.50] - Gregg Garner
So texts like let everybody see or that light shining in you so that they can testify or witness Your good work and glorify your father in heaven, that that just kinda is irrelevant. Like
[00:09:04.70] - Laurie Kagay
I think they read it, like, out of me. Like, see that light in me as an individual person.
[00:09:10.39] - Gregg Garner
Okay.
[00:09:11.20] - Laurie Kagay
I don't know.
[00:09:11.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I think there's so much self…
[00:09:13.70] - Gregg Garner
But if it's private …? Go ahead.
[00:09:17.20] - Jeff Sherrod
So much, like, cultural pressure for self affirm affirmation, self love. You know? Like, you are your own judge. I can see where that's going, and I don't know. I I I think that if we're looking at some of these, I think we could obviously say that we know and we know this from working with young people for a long time. There's Problem with discipleship, from churches where we're seeing less and less biblical literacy for people that are coming here. But maybe we should just start with, when we're talking about discipleship, what do we mean, like, if we're giving people kind of a biblical answer? I know the pastor said people are often referred to as Matthew twenty eight. We know that they're supposed to go out and make disciples. I don't know if they know of any other that's the one I think I probably hear the most when people are talking about discipleship.
[00:09:58.70] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I often wonder when people hear disciple. I've I've heard people, make it synonymous with followers, like disciples or followers. But then with today's vernacular, like, you could follow Nashville severe weather On Twitter. Right. And you can follow CNN and Al Jazeera and all these other Ed Sheeran, whoever you want, you follow them. So Following is like a very low commit
[00:10:28.89] - Laurie Kagay
Oh, yeah.
[00:10:29.39] - Gregg Garner
Activity in today's world, and and I think that to equate follower of disciple is a misconception. So I wanna rule that out…
[00:10:38.60] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Mhmm.
[00:10:39.10] - Gregg Garner
Immediately. Well, they were followers of Jesus. The first century concept of being a follower, again, is very different than today's Idea about following. So, I I just wouldn't make them synonymous based upon today's use of the term Yeah. Follower. Another thing that I think is Worth pointing out with respect to discipleship is that of all the terms that Jesus could use To identify the group of people who were with him.
[00:11:12.39] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:11:12.79] - Gregg Garner
Who, had the most contact and the most, Teaching. We're called disciples. Mhmm. And like you noted, they were charged to make disciples. It it's gonna be pretty important that we get a good definition of the term Right. Especially if we're going to refer to ourselves as disciples. Now we know that the Greek word is, easily translated as student. Yeah. So discipleship then Is an educational process. Mhmm. Let's talk about that for a second. Like, how many people do you guys think understand discipleship As an educational process.
[00:11:55.50] - Jeff Sherrod
I don't think that that's the prevalent understanding of of the term.
[00:12:00.29] - Gregg Garner
I feel like at best, They would think it's an educational process, but within the context of, like, assimilation. Like, I'm gonna give you assimilation list, concepts, Beliefs doctrine. And so if you're gonna be a part of our group, here's the twelve things that you need to believe. Mhmm. And here's what they are. You believe them now because you agreed that they make sense. That was your discipleship course. Yeah. Congratulations. You've assimilated. So I think that's make other disciples.
[00:12:31.79] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. By giving them those twelve things.
[00:12:33.79] - Gregg Garner
To these to the system of belief.
[00:12:35.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah.
[00:12:37.10] - Gregg Garner
Where I I think I think we then could contrast indoctrination and authentic education because the the the the indoctrinating process was not something Jesus did.
[00:12:48.10] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:12:48.60] - Gregg Garner
For Jesus' interactions with his disciples were often coupled with With misunderstanding and conflict and the the need to, explain what it was he already taught. Like, their their the educational process was, profound. And when we read the gospels, we're just reading story after story That gives us the breadth or the the scope of consideration for what discipleship means. And I think from that is where we should build our definition.
[00:13:19.10] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. And if what if what he wanted was that, you wouldn't need four gospels to tell the story.
[00:13:23.89] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:13:24.29] - Laurie Kagay
You know, he would have said he handed these precepts Yeah.
[00:13:27.10] - Gregg Garner
And these are the precepts that he gave his disciples. We now have the precepts. We're gonna pass you the precepts, and it just wasn't the case. Right? So I I think identifying that, first of all, discipleship is an educational process and that disciples are students.
[00:13:42.10] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:13:43.39] - Gregg Garner
That Jesus is rabbi or teacher, and now he wants to teach us. Now the question becomes about what? Like, what what is the subject matter?
[00:13:53.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:13:54.60] - Gregg Garner
And I think the the easy answer would be it's God or it's about our Christian faith. But if we look at Jesus' life and his ministry, I think from that, We should be able to come up with some better answers.
[00:14:09.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:14:09.79] - Gregg Garner
Because while I think we can all, see that Jesus revealed the father, Taught us about God. Jesus also spent so much time helping the disciples to read the world, Mhmm. Learn how to see the world around them. Learn how to like, in Luke seven, he precisely says, Simon, see this woman. Yeah. Like, take a look at her, and then he makes observations about their social interactions, the, cultural expectation versus the, deviant labeling that was put upon her Mhmm. And the fact that there's more context to her narrative and storyline. So he's he even gives a, a a parable within that, transaction between him and the the social group that he is a part of so as to make sense of The psychology of this woman and why she would act in this way. So, you know, and just looking at those things there, we're looking at Social emotional intelligence he's teaching.
[00:15:09.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:15:10.20] - Gregg Garner
He's teaching cultural awareness. He's teaching, psychology. He's he's, teaching them all how to make observation. He's teaching them to, refrain from judgments Based upon hearsay, like, there's just so much to that one little incident. And if we look at all the gospels and all of the different stories in there, I mean, you have quite a curriculum.
[00:15:36.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:15:36.29] - Laurie Kagay
And you said it earlier today too. Like, he's so generous to us. We would think he just wants us to know about him. Like, that God just wants us to know Yeah. About God…
[00:15:44.60] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:15:44.89] - Laurie Kagay
But he's like, he wants us to know about ourselves, about each other, about our world, about, Like, there's so much depth to it because he's so generous. Yeah. He helps us so much in that way.
[00:15:55.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I and I think, you know, the mistake would be, Well, if Jesus is gonna teach, like, the psychology on this woman, if he's gonna teach customs and manners with culture and worldview, Then let's just create curricula Mhmm. According to that subject matter. But that's that's not what happens in the discipleship process. Jesus is doing all of this According to the word of God. Mhmm. It and and it's not like proof text, you know, like, k. We have a psychology class today, you guys. And The text that we're gonna look at is when Jesus helps us to perspective take from the simple woman Luke seven, and And, we look at see this woman. Okay. Now we're gonna, examine Freud and Skinner and Levinson's Concepts on perspective taking….
[00:16:39.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:16:40.10] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:16:40.60] - Gregg Garner
Right? This is not what we're talking about.
[00:16:42.20] - Jeff Sherrod
Like, doing some kind of we we essentially check a box to say there was a Christian worldview assignment at least. Yeah. Now we're getting to the real Yeah.
[00:16:48.70] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna open up the class with this little devotional and because we're gonna be talking about leadership. Joshua was a great leader.
[00:16:56.50] - Laurie Kagay
Yep.
[00:16:57.10] - Gregg Garner
Don't be discouraged or dismayed is what the Lord told him. Amen? Amen. Now let's look at, the Twenty One Irrefutable Laws of Leadership or, you know, whatever other book is out there. Covey's book on, a seven whatevers.
[00:17:12.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I I do I think this is such a good point, though, because I do think that this is how I know we're eventually gonna get to colleges, but I think this is how a lot of colleges satisfy The biblical worldview discipleship thing that they wanna do is, like, well, we did pray before we started. You know, it's like, it can just be a little low bar.
[00:17:29.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, even when we do talk about colleges and okay. So let's make the connection. Right? When Jesus called his disciples…
[00:17:41.00] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:17:41.40] - Gregg Garner
This cohort, I I think in our minds, we think he was calling them to church. Like, as a twenty first century believer, most popularly, I know for me as a kid, it was like, that was the beginning of the church. Jesus created the church, And these twelve disciples were were church members. And in that case, with the paradigm I grew up with, they attended his Sunday Talk Mhmm. And maybe his Sunday night informal talk, and then maybe his Tuesday prayer time, and then maybe his Wednesday get a little deeper For a shorter amount of time.
[00:18:13.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Same thought. Yeah. Super churchgoers. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:15.59] - Gregg Garner
But the fact of the matter is that in the first century, you had a lot of these itinerant Teachers Mhmm. Who were very mobile and moving around and gathering students. And Just like a college has an admissions process and an application process where you, Have to have necessary prerequisites Mhmm. To be able to participate and that there's, there are some people who get to be a part of the program. There's others who don't. So Jesus had the same with the disciples. Now I think a lot of people having a misconception probably because they didn't read the Bible, they just Did that thing where they imagine that Jesus would never discriminate or he would never not accept someone into a school. Yeah. They just never read the text. But when we read some of those Those, very pointed texts where you have Jesus saying, hey. Follow me, which I I think it's very important to recognize that when our our rabbi was asking a student or potential student to follow them.
[00:19:14.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:19:15.09] - Gregg Garner
They were asking them to apply and enroll into their, collegiate or scholastic institution. Yeah. That's what was being requested.
[00:19:24.00] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:19:24.40] - Gregg Garner
It wasn't like an easy click Follow or, yeah, I wanna be where you are kinda thing. He's enrolling them into a program. So when These people are are asking to follow or he's asking them to follow. He gives them hurdles. Foxes have holes. Birds of the air have nests and a man has no place to lay his head. This person now has Contend with whether or not they want to be a part of a scholastic institution that doesn't have any Institutional Authority, right? Yeah, whether it's it's the foxes connected to Herod and his his, puppet Kingdom or Or it's the birds of the air and Romans, institutional power having control over Israel. Jesus is contrasting his ministry As, not having that that kind of institutional power. So maybe today, we would highlight that with, like, not being regionally accredited or, We we're not gonna be able to, get you access to title four funds or or it it it makes the disciple go, wait — Do I want to be a part of of this?
[00:20:31.20] - Gregg Garner
Or they're like, let me, let me bury my father. Mhmm. Right? More considerations. In other places, you get people having concerns with recent property they purchased Mhmm. Or that they got married. So Jesus was definitely, creating prerequisites for who could and who should Yeah. Be a part of his discipleship crew. We even know that the text is very specific to say he chose them.
[00:21:01.90] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah.
[00:21:02.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. John six, he says, have I not chosen the twelve of you? So that means that he had selections. Mhmm. There were people That, were available, but not everybody got chosen to be a part of this program because Like any good Scholastic institution, if you're going to have someone go through your program, you want them to have the kind of Ability that allows you to say, yes. We're proud of this person. Mhmm. They went through the program. They've learned what it is that they're supposed to learn, and we approve. And and we will stamp that approval onto this person. So for Jesus, his his curriculum was unveiled with with texts like, A servant is not greater than their master nor is a student greater than a teacher, but it is enough that the student become like the teacher. Yeah. So Jesus is letting them know Our goal here, through this discipleship process is for you to become like your teacher. That that there was going to be character Right. Human human development. So, I think, like, right off the bat, it's important for us to contrast Whatever we think discipleship is and recognize that it took place within the context of an educational institution or an educational modality. You had teachers you had students and it wasn't limited to, religious days of observance.
[00:22:26.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:22:26.59] - Gregg Garner
In fact, Jesus and his disciples could go to a synagogue on the Sabbath, but themselves continue lessons, as they are walking The path on the Sabbath Right.
[00:22:37.00] - Jeff Sherrod
And going through…
[00:22:37.50] - Gregg Garner
the grain fields.
[00:22:38.29] - Laurie Kagay
Wherever he is.
[00:22:39.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. So so the the educational process wasn't limited To formal settings in the classroom or formal settings in the synagogue, but it was All the time, everywhere in whatever they were doing. And the disciples are free to ask questions, and Jesus taught them through their normal everyday interactions with others. So we we can't say neither that the discipleship process has to be formalized. But with collegiate institutions, as you properly noted, Because we want schools to have some standards Yeah. With respect to how we determine, respectable education should take place. We we do have to, write things down and make a a uniformed expectation to some degree Mhmm. While still allowing institutions to have some freedom. But we know that in Jesus' discipleship process, not all of it was formal. There there there were highly informal elements. These guys Traveled together. Yeah. They lived together. They knew each other's families.
So some of the things that we sometimes put into our educational institutions, To protect, those those boundaries didn't exist for Jesus and his disciples. Jesus knew, Zebedee, The the sons of Thunder's dad, you know, they he he stayed with Peter's family At their house and and, made acquaintance with his mother-in-law. Jesus, had had gift changes and not like student appreciation at the end of the semester kind of things, but, like, gifts that that highlighted the importance of his mission, like, He received from, Mary prior to, even, his his departure and post Lazarus. So it's like These these, boundaries that we create to implement the protections That then produce the formalities that become our collegiate institutions inherently then Are going to fall short of what it was that Jesus was doing with his disciples. And I think at that point, We have to ask ourselves, some more questions like, in the twenty first century, can we still implement Jesus' discipleship paradigm? And is it going to be healthy for people?
[00:25:10.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:25:11.20] - Gregg Garner
Because I think instead what ends up happening is If folks hear about a discipleship institution where teachers and students develop friendship, Jesus says, I no longer call you servants.
[00:25:23.00] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm. Because Because…
[00:25:23.29] - Gregg Garner
Because Because I confide in you. Instead, I call you friends, and this was a communication to his disciples.
[00:25:27.29] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:25:28.90] - Gregg Garner
Right. That's weird that teachers could become friends with their students or Or, that's weird that they travel together. That's weird that they're always together and always learning. That that weirdness element is likely connected to the fact that this is a foreign practice for most of our culture. Right. And I think a important task for us today in this podcast is to establish that a discipleship institution That wants to do its best to do things the way Jesus did them is going to have to identify Those elements that made up Jesus's discipleship process and then implement.
[00:26:11.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:26:12.50] - Gregg Garner
And I I think this is all gonna contribute not just to what it means to be a disciple or what it means to have discipleship, But more specifically, what it means to be a disciple of Jesus and to be in a discipleship program that mirrors contextualization.
[00:26:32.59] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:26:33.00] - Gregg Garner
In a contextualized fashion, the ministry of Jesus.
[00:26:35.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm it sounds like if I can repeat some of that, I think. You can correct me if I'm missing it. It sounds like colleges are they are set up on some level that they could be Effective discipleship institutions. Like, there's a selection process. There's people that are there that are hopefully more mature in God's word. But because of maybe some of our cultural protections or institutional protections, we're preventing discipleship from happening. So, you know, at my college, I was not friends with I didn't really spend any time with professors outside the classroom. It was if I did, it was very limited and very little. Certainly didn't travel together, did not know their families.
[00:27:14.40] - Laurie Kagay
I wonder if, like, kind of the anti intellectualism within the church plays into it too where you just have a separation of colleges from this more intimate journey. Because a lot of it's like discipleship is a church mode.
[00:27:27.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Because discipleship almost sounds like less intellectual…
[00:27:30.50] - Gregg Garner
This is I think this is what we're we're we're implicating through this conversation is that even though colleges should be the better venue, the more natural venue for discipleship. Discipleship is happening in the church. Right. Because in the church, I we can concede that there's there's typically less accountability With respect to the institutional standards for how it is a church should operate Yeah.
[00:27:51.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Because you can just start a church program. You should. Right? Like, you
[00:27:54.59] - Gregg Garner
Like you can start in your living room. Right? And it's gonna be unregulated because there's Separation of church and state Right. There's a lot of freedom there. But as soon as you get engaged in, especially post secondary higher education, you're you're subject to the state. You're subject to the federal government. Like, there there are a lot of considerations that have to be made. And so the formality Then pushes the academics, and then the that now seems to distance you from what could happen In that environment, which, again, I think lends itself better to discipleship than the church.
[00:28:28.09] - Laurie Kagay
I think even looking for just…
[00:28:29.29] - Gregg Garner
And I'm not talking about the church As in the the way in which we describe the the gathering of God's people at large.
[00:28:36.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Right.
[00:28:36.70] - Gregg Garner
I'm talking about the institutional, systematic presence of, an association that says attend these services and Participate in these programs Yeah. To be clear.
[00:28:49.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep.
To be Continued…
Show Notes
Institute for GOD
Gregg Garner
For comments, questions, or topic ideas, email us at conversations@instituteforgod.org